Speaker 0 00:00:00 <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:00:13 Welcome to the California table. I'm Betty Yee. We will be meeting people from our diverse regions of California who are creating their own tables to tackle some of the most pressing issues of our time. Community voices gathering, coming together to speak up for themselves, to take charge of their own lives, to fight for themselves. This is the California table
Speaker 0 00:00:39 <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:00:50 It was a crisp Saturday morning in September, 2019. As I walked from the parking lot at San Quentin state prison to be processed before my meeting in the visiting room there, the staff was professional. And when confirming the name of the inmate, I was visiting Theodore gray, the staff smiled and gave and approving nod. I was excited to meet Ted gray whose work while inside the walls of prison has attracted the attention and praise of correctional staff, fellow inmates, and community members. I had come to learn about his work from advocates of criminal justice reform upon entering the visiting room. Ted and his family have been eagerly, awaiting my arrival. Greeting me with a surprise announcement. Have you heard, they asked, did you hear the news? I shook my head. No Ted's father overcome with emotion informed me that the governor had commuted his son's sentence. A few days ago, Ted gray was unique among the many inmates in the visiting room that morning. He was slated to be released
Speaker 1 00:02:18 The state prison system under the California department of corrections and rehabilitation housed a high of over 173,000 people. In 2006, the punitive tough on crime laws placed on the books over the preceding decades, drove the growth in the prison population. These laws, lengthened sentences and included the three strikes law that call for doubling the sentencing term to state prison for anyone convicted of a new felony, having already one prior conviction for a serious felony and mandating a state prison term of 25 years to life for anyone convicted of any felony with two or more prior strikes in the late two thousands California's state prison population began to experience significant declines stemming from a federal court ruling that California must reduce prison, overcrowding and release inmates in order to provide constitutionally adequate inmate health care, California complied by shifting the responsibility of incarcerating some low level offenders in County jails revising the three strikes law relating to life sentences, reducing penalties for certain non-serious and non-violent crimes from felonies to misdemeanors and cutting the amount of time served with release eligibility changes.
Speaker 1 00:03:54 Public sentiment also was changing during this time with increased support for inmate rehabilitation programs, restorative justice, that brings the offender and the victim together to determine how to repair the harm done, reducing the school to prison pipeline by addressing school discipline policies such as suspension. So students are not pushed out of the classroom into the criminal justice system. More recently, California has passed bills to support community re-entry by inmates. That includes automatic records expungement for those convicted of low-level offenses. Great protecting victims of crime is a critical function of our criminal justice system. Victims remain underserved, lacking access to support and services to recover from harm. Yet the 2019 California crime survivors speak survey found that crime victims acknowledged solutions of prevention, treatment, and rehabilitation over incarceration and supported increased judicial discretion over mandatory sentences. The survey found that victims of violent crimes were just as likely as other victims to support these alternatives. Do these alternatives work? Will they effectively reduce recidivism? How can we prepare inmates for successful community? Re-entry these questions and more have been top of mind for my two guests today.
Speaker 2 00:05:42 Welcome Ted and Jason. Thank you for spending some time with our listening audience. Thank you, Betty. We, we appreciate the opportunity. Yes. Thank you for having us for Ted grey and Jason Bryant. When you met up with the California system, what were your lives like?
Speaker 3 00:06:00 Uh, you want me to start J sure, sure. So I grew up in a small town in Northern California. It was a logging community and you know, I was real into sports. I had a to, I grew up, you know, for the first 14 years of my life in a two parent household, when I was 14 years old, my parents got a divorce. And ultimately after a few shaky months with my mom, I ended up moving in with my dad. I went to a small high school, which is where I played football and wrestled. And ultimately, uh, where I met Jason
Speaker 4 00:06:38 For me, I was raised in Southern California. My father was black. My mother is white. And I predominantly went to schools where I was the minority and mostly white kids in the schools that I went to. So my first experience with racism occurred at a relatively young age, and I kind of used those experiences, those, those early traumas, as an excuse to kind of shape this perspective, that it was really important to be tough, to be seen as tough. So I began identifying with other kids who I thought portrayed that image. By the time I was 15 years old, my parents and I moved to Redding, California. And I had said, that's where I met him. And I was really attracted to Ted because he was a senior and I was a sophomore. And he was like the school jock, you know, everybody liked him, all the girls wanted to be with them, all the guys wanted to be in. And so we became fast friends because even though I was two years younger than him, he shared his name birthday. So he's two years older than me to the day. And, uh, you know, we became really fast friends, like I said.
Speaker 2 00:07:48 So your relationship grew stronger because of your attraction to the attributes of the other. What other relationships were important to you at that time?
Speaker 3 00:07:59 Well, for me, uh, I was very close with my dad. After my parents got a divorce. It was just he and I for a couple of years. And I, during that time, you know, he was always my dad and always, uh, like the parent parental figure, but he was also my friend. And so I would say that was my closest relationship for sure. And, you know, today remains among the two most important relationships that I have. Yeah,
Speaker 4 00:08:27 For me, my adolescence was more of a process of pushing away from the people who loved me. You know, I was, I was raised in a loving two parent household with a mother who lavished me with an abundance of support and caring and, and, uh, you know, I decided to push away from those things. And I remember from a young age with wanting to go do my own thing and hang out with who I wanted to hang out with. So as far as the importance of my relationships, like I didn't even appreciate the, the love and the support that I had in my own family until I was incarcerated. It wasn't until that point that I came to start to understand what I had. So callously disregarded it
Speaker 2 00:09:09 It's like the adage. You don't always know what you have until you're about to lose it. What happened to your relationships after you were convicted and sentenced?
Speaker 3 00:09:20 Well, so for me, I remember December of 1999, one day after our crime and my dad was the one that ultimately negotiated my surrender. And he did it primarily out of fear for my safety, I think. And I remember what he told me that day. First thing he said was you're in a lot of trouble. And I could see that on his face, you know, that he was both scared and, you know, devastated by what I had done and what that meant for my future. And the second thing that he, he told me was whatever you do tell the truth and, you know, whatever happens, we're going to get through it together. And so for 20 years and four or five months of my incarceration, he was the one who continuously supported me and kind of lived up to what he had told me the day that I was arrested. And I remember being in visiting rooms that were filled with mothers and girlfriends and wives, and really not that many dads. So I've counted myself as extremely blessed that we were able to maintain our, both our friendship and just the father and son bond.
Speaker 2 00:10:38 Thank you, Jason, how about you, your relationships after you got sentenced, did your family visit you while you were in prison? What was it like after a family visit and how did you handle your emotions? When they had to leave?
Speaker 4 00:10:55 I kind of was hit really hard in the gut. On the day I was arrested, I was actually arrested, um, on my parents' home, give you a little bit of background. My dad was 45 when he had me when I was born and he never knew his father, but what he didn't know how to do was to work really hard. He was the type of man who worked from dark to dark with very little complaints in his life. I'd seen him break bones in horse, riding accidents or falling out of trees while he was working. And, and he never cried. You know, my mom was the really emotional Italian mother. So when I committed my crime and I was at my parents' house, and I'm wondering, what am I supposed to do? You know, my mom, she's, she's emotionally distraught, which I kind of expected.
Speaker 4 00:11:40 And my dad was in shock, but he went out first as the sheriffs came to apprehend me when I surrendered. And as the sheriffs came, they escorted me down my driveway. That was the first time I ever saw my father cry and mean he wasn't just like a few tears coming out of his eyes. He was heaving uncontrollably. And it was in that moment that I had this epiphany. However, undeveloped, I realized in that moment when I saw my dad in that state, that my decisions were never just about me or my decisions impacted the people who I loved the most. So fast forward, just a short time, you know, my second year in prison. I mean, I knew immediately that I didn't want to continue bringing that type of pain to my parents or my family. So I did my best to stay out of the way.
Speaker 4 00:12:33 But fast forward, a couple of years, 2002, I'm on a visit with my dad. And I was kind of throwing a pity party about how much time I had to do. And my dad was doing his best to make me feel better. He was telling me, you know, and he's like, well, son, I'm gonna hang around and around, be out here and you come home and I'm telling him that, but I still got 24 years before. They're even going to think about considering letting me out and at a time when there wasn't a lot of hope for people with life sentences, you know, the, the rhetoric was not very positive about how California was going to deal with their life or population. So, you know, my daddy, he responded to this and he said, you know, sign. He said, I don't care if it's 24 years, 24 months or 24 days, all you have is this moment.
Speaker 4 00:13:13 We've got to make the most of every moment of your lifestyle because that's all you really have. And it wasn't long after that, my dad passed away. He passed away from prostate cancer. So I think one of the, it was really bittersweet because the two years that I was incarcerated before my dad died, we had some really great opportunities to bond. And he shared a lot of his wisdom with me. But reality is, is that he passed away before he ever really got to see a Sunday, anything positive would be alive. And, you know, that was a source of a lot of pain for me for a lot of years.
Speaker 5 00:13:41 <inaudible>
Speaker 2 00:13:52 A lot of emotions. Jason, in the early days of your incarceration, all of that weight, you were bearing. Describe your emotions while you were in prison. Did you feel anger about what did you feel pain for your crime
Speaker 4 00:14:12 From the day that the crime happened? I felt a tremendous amount of remorse for my choices, for our choices and the devastation, because I'd wake them from early on. However, undeveloped those sentiments were, I still had some understanding that we really did something terrible to people, not just our families, but the community and our other directed things. But the years building up through my dad's passing away. Like I said, we had a lot of opportunities and I just, in, in the visiting room to kind of share our thoughts and share our hopes, I learned things about them that I never even really cared about before I came to prison. Like I had this attitude, like when I was my, my mother's only child and it's like, you know, I'm spoiled. And I have, I have this entitlement, but then once it's all taken away because of choices that I make, you really start to understand all that you've forsaken.
Speaker 4 00:14:59 And then when my dad died, so we were on lockdown and it was really unexpected because he was a relatively healthy guy. And, and he had a surgery for his prostate, which was successful, but the doctor failed to prescribe the right medication and he actually died of pneumonia. So we were on the level four yard and it was a, you know, an, it was an extended lockdown from a major incident that occurred on the yard and the counselor broke the news to me and, you know, it was just completely surreal. And I thought, I think maybe most people think that their parents will live forever. I had that thought. And then the following weekend, my mother came to visit me, my grandmother and my, my aunt on my mom's sister came from Rhode Island to see me. But at the time the policy was that when there was a major incident, there was no contact visits, no matter what the circumstance.
Speaker 4 00:15:48 So, you know, I was 22 years old, behind a couple of inches of plexiglass crying my eyes out. My mom's on the list with her sister and my grandmother, and can't even embrace. And we're just trying to be there for each other as much as that's possible with, you know, some glass between you. But that was the, actually the last time that I've cried for about seven years, because I kind of went into this shell. And I think I learned that from my dad. It was probably a defense mechanism. No, it definitely was a defense mechanism because what I decided to do was to shut down emotionally and started focusing heavily on education and just get to work. My relationship suffered even my relationships with other incarcerated people. They were very hollow and superficial because the only thing I was focused on was staying out of the way and doing the work.
Speaker 2 00:16:36 So really withdrawing in a major way.
Speaker 4 00:16:39 Yes. And, uh, and I didn't work through that until, you know, I met back up with Ted almost 10 years later.
Speaker 2 00:16:46 Ted, let me turn to you. Describe your emotions while you were in prison. Did you feel anger and what do you think that anger was about and your feelings of paying for the crime, sir?
Speaker 3 00:17:03 Um, so, you know, for me, it is a little different, you know, I was raised in a very old school way of thinking about what it meant to be a man, you know, the, the way my dad was raised, he took what he learned growing up and, uh, taught me many of the same things. So, you know, what I was taught from a young age was men don't cry. Really the only emotion that felt like it was okay to display was anger. So I remember even as a little kid, like when I was embarrassed or ashamed, I would often lash out in anger because it wasn't okay to admit that you were embarrassed or that you were hurt or that you were ashamed. So really I took that mindset and that way of thinking about emotions into prison and looking back with the altitude of the time, you know, being able to process all of it has helped me understand that anger was the secondary emotion.
Speaker 3 00:18:00 And there's a great deal of shame, many people in my family and in my community, including Jason's parents really kind of thought I had it all together. And so when we committed this crime for me, there was a lot of shame just from people really finding out some of the stuff I had been up to. There was a lot of guilt for what we had done to our victims. And at the time I did not have a way to share that or process it. So I kept kind of kept it bottled up and just kind of stuffed it down. And for the first several years of my incarceration, I was pretty angry person to dissipated in some different violent situations to try to maintain an image and kind of toe the white political party line that dominates the culture of prison for people who identify as white.
Speaker 3 00:18:49 And so it took me about six years to make it from a level four to a level three because of the incidents that I was involving myself in and justifying being irresponsible and kind of relating to my own situation as a victim. I remember my dad would come and he would visit and Jason had already left and our other co-defendant had already left, transferred down to level three institutions, and he would ask me, what are you still doing here? And the experience for me at the time was no I'm doing what I have to do to survive. And I just had a lot of anger, kind of looked at myself as the victim, believe it or not, this is how it is in prison. I got to do what I got to do, and I was pretty angry and it really wasn't until I made it to CTS Solidad, where I was able to sit in groups and listen to other guys, talk about their own emotions.
Speaker 3 00:19:40 And that's kind of where I learned how to do it, believe it or not. Uh, you know, I was probably 32 years old and that's when I really started to get a handle on my own emotions. And so for the first 10 years, really, I was pretty distant from most people. I didn't have a lot of close relationships. I had some superficial friendships. And I would say that even the friendships that I felt like were, you know, meaningful, they were pretty much based on just proximity and this experience of we're in this thing together, but it really wasn't about shared commitments to anything virtuous. So for me, it was really in about 2010, 2011, where I started to get a handle on my emotions and understand that anger is a secondary emotion and you gotta gonna appeal things back and figure out what's going on underneath.
Speaker 2 00:20:30 I appreciate the self-reflection and self-realization that both of you are expressing, especially how you dealt with your anger and how the shame manifested itself for you, Ted and for you, Jason, completely withdrawing. I'm curious. And I'm sure our listeners are curious about the gang culture inside prison walls. It made to affiliate with one another on different levels. Tell us how you dealt with the gang
Speaker 4 00:21:05 For me, because I housed with the black population, the rules were a little bit different. And what I mean by that is traditionally when in prison culture, the gang faction is mandated or, or run by the street gangs. That you're a part of. So like I said earlier, being from small towns, I was technically a non-affiliate and there was good and there was bad that corner pad on the good side, I wasn't necessarily obligated to participate in violence or, or riots or have any of the, like the pressure from other people to engage in various forms of criminality while incarcerated on the bad side. It also meant that I could be preyed upon because I didn't have anyone who had my back, but unquote, there would be no real consequences. If someone decided to take my canteen or beat me up or assault me in various ways.
Speaker 4 00:22:06 Fortunately for me, there's a saying your conduct is your currency in prison. Like you don't have much else. Everything can be taken away from you except for how you conduct yourself, your character and the parents that are really good job, helping me to drama someone of decent character in spite of my terrible choices. And I carried that with me in there. And because of that, because I had committed myself to go into school, staying out of the way, there was a segment of the black population. I was surrounded by gang members, but there was a segment of, of individuals who kind of insulated me because while there were people who would pray or wanted to pray upon, there were also people who said, you know what, he's doing the right thing. He's staying out of the way. He's not bothering by leaving them alone. So that, that was pretty much my experience with gangs who were obviously there was the potential to be victimized by gangs, but there was also gang members who actually kind of respected the fact that I was doing the right thing with my time and made sure that I was not harmed.
Speaker 2 00:23:03 So those who had your back, Jason, do you feel like they looked up to you? Well,
Speaker 4 00:23:09 I'll say this. So initially when I started going to school, I was the only incarcerated person on level four, taking college courses. This was, this was before they had the bog waiver or the bog waiver had been taken away at the time. And either from lack of ability, financial ability or lack of desire, people would just run going to school. And initially, like I said, I was doing it kind of just to stay out of the way and stay busy. But what I noticed was the more I learned, the more I became a resource to a lot of guys in there, whether it was writing a letter or putting together a six Oh two, which is all complaints or working on some Abe, math type problems guys were coming to me looking for some type of help. And I think that in some ways, you know, they appreciated me. I don't know about looked up to me, but I think they appreciated the fact that I was using my brain in a positive way. Ted, speak a bit about your experiences with gang similar experiences or different
Speaker 3 00:24:10 It's as much different, quite a bit of problems simply because I had a black co-defendant white prison culture. It doesn't matter if you come to prison from a street gang or not, you know, there's a mandate the way that you're kind of initiated into this, uh, white power prison culture, right from the beginning and the end, they tell you how it is almost as soon as you show up. So I remember after we had been through reception and made it to, uh, the general population, um, we were on, on a level four yard. My first weekend there, I received a visit from Kelly and Jason had been the one to introduce me to Kelly. And so when she showed up in the visiting room, he was already out there. And of course it makes sense that she would go over there, give him a hug visit with his mom and dad.
Speaker 3 00:25:10 And then when I got out there, you know, we spent the day together, had a great visit. But when I got back to the housing unit, my celly, he was, you know, letting me know in no uncertain terms that everybody on the yard is talking about how my girlfriend was in the visiting room, hugging on this black guy. So I was faced with a little bit of a conflict right off, right off the bat, just because I was friends with somebody who was black and I committed a crime with him. So it, and it wasn't an option for me to kind of stay out of the way. If you refuse to participate in violence, then you know, you're going to be victimized. So I mean, it, I guess looking back, it was an option. It just, wasn't an option that I had the courage to make.
Speaker 3 00:26:02 It wasn't a choice that I had to courage to make, you know, at 22, 23 years old to kind of plant my flag and say, you know, I'm not going to be a part of any of this. And whatever happens to me happens to me, but I'm going to do the right thing. You know, that, that really, that decision really took me about 10 years to make. And it, and it didn't ha happen all at once. Like for me in about 2007, I started thinking to myself that I don't want this environment or the circumstances to determine what I can do with my life and who I can become. And between that three or four year process between two, uh, two seven and 2010 or 11, I had to kind of grow into that. So I would like to say that I, I refuse to participate. I wish I would have, but I didn't. And, you know, I had, I had some maturing to do and just had to develop the courage to kind of plant my flag and say, this is where I'm at. And this is what I'm going to do with my time in here. Uh, that, that took time for me.
Speaker 2 00:27:08 Thank you for that. Both of you have shared some of your firsthand observations and experiences about race and minority status among the person population. How did the prison staff relate to you over time?
Speaker 6 00:27:22 You want me to go first ed? Sure. So it changed over time with me. When I first started my sentence at the level four institution in high desert, there was predominantly white CEOs and their, their duty was to keep custody over predominantly black and Brown people. And there was a really kind of an antagonistic stance between staff and incarcerated people. But when I transferred to the level three facility in Folsom dynamic changed a little bit. It seemed like there was a little bit more understanding maybe because many of the correctional officers were themselves black and Brown people. It seemed as if they had a, some level of understanding that, you know, they might've been a choice away or a decision away from making the same type of life altering choice that would result in their incarceration. So there was a little bit more of an empathetic stance when I got to the CTF, however, which is in the Salinas Valley.
Speaker 6 00:28:19 It was interesting because there were mostly Brown cos mostly Hispanic. There was a more healthy mixture of both men and women who were correctional officers. And it seemed to me like there was at the level two institution, there was more of a so long as you're programming and you're, and you're doing what you're supposed to be doing. There was a level of support. Personally. I experienced a level of support from many CEOs. Of course there was always the off-brand correction officer who kind of just wanted to see, uh, incarcerated people kind of suffer. I think that that probably is a little bit of a carry over from maybe a punitive mindset, like people who commit crimes and are in prison need to be punished. I think there's probably a culture that amongst many CEOs that continues today, but I also did experience a lot of support from some correctional officers who identified those of us who were doing the right thing and wanted us to succeed.
Speaker 2 00:29:11 So you felt like you were being recognized for your unique attributes?
Speaker 6 00:29:16 Sure, sure. Um, among many CEOs who I encountered, uh, there was I, there was a lot of support, but like I said, on the other side of that, there were also a variation of correctional officers who just saw me as a, you know, another number, a guy in blue who did something wrong and needed to be punished.
Speaker 2 00:29:33 Ted. How about you and your relationship with present staff? How did they relate to you over time? So I think
Speaker 3 00:29:42 I can, I, uh, really identify with what Jason shared my remember at high desert where I spent my first 10 years, uh, it was predominantly white men who work there and while there was always like an us and them mindset between staff and the incarcerated population, it was as if, if you were white, you had a little bit more coming from the staff for sure. And I remember like they would invite us into conversations to speak in a derogatory manner about, you know, the black population or the Hispanic population. So I, I mean, I can really relate with that. And on some yards it was worse than others. One of the yards that I was on at high desert was a level three and it wasn't as bad there, but it just seemed like the African-American population. They were the ones getting put up on the wall, random Pat downs, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 00:30:46 That was, that was true. And then, like Jason said, when we made it to CTF, you know, those dynamics completely flipped around. And I remember not having the access to the staff the way that I did, I had high desert. So that rings true for me as well. But for me personally, I, I generally had pretty good relationship with most of the staff at any prison I was at. I think they saw that for the most part. I was trying to stay out of trouble or when I got the CTF that I was trying to be a part of something that would help change the prison culture. So no, I had the benefit of experiencing, you know, staff who did support that. I remember when we were at CTF, there was a Lieutenant and an associate warden who, without their support, the things that we were able to accomplish, you know, along with a team of other guys probably would have never happened. They, they really put their shoulder behind, uh, what we were doing and helped us like break new ground on several of those projects.
Speaker 2 00:31:55 Let's turn our attention to some of the projects because they seemed important and how you want it to change the culture from the inside, where they, the catalyst to you're making a commitment that you would not be spending the rest of her life in prison.
Speaker 3 00:32:12 When I really started to get clear on what I wanted for my future, I knew that I wanted something different, but you know, I barely graduated high school. I wasn't very informed about what was available or about like evidence-based programs that could be established within the institutions that would really help bring about change. So it, for me, it started just meeting guys who were like-minded. We would read literature on, you know, what worked, what the problems were. And it just was a slow process of equipping ourselves to bring programs into the CDCR that just weren't being provided. When Jason and I were at high desert, there were no programs. There wasn't an AA program that you could participate in if you were not on close custody, but we were, you know, most of the population at a maximum security facility is on close custody. So it wasn't available to us.
Speaker 3 00:33:10 And when we got to CTS, there was some programming and that the mindset of the CDCR was starting to shift on kind of the, what the purpose of prison is. So we read the roadmap to rehabilitation, uh, the, the California blueprint for bringing in evidence-based programs. And we kind of just followed the evidence for what these blue ribbon panels were putting together for what was supposed to be happening. And instead of waiting for the state to fund it and, you know, to bring in the contractors, that's just, uh, an incredibly long process and it doesn't happen overnight. And so since we were, you know, at one prison and we had an administration that was really open to the possibility of the incarcerated population, kind of spearheading rehabilitative programming, we were able to, uh, establish an alcohol and other drugs certification program for counselors. 33 men graduated that program became sir stay certified counselors. And those were the guys while they were still incarcerated, who ultimately became like the backbone of a CTS rehabilitative programming that was led by the incarcerated population.
Speaker 2 00:34:22 These are the programs that were built by the inmates. Then following the state blueprint of the 33 men, are they inside or outside the walls of prison today?
Speaker 6 00:34:34 If I got paroled, there's five that are still awaiting the parole board, all of them were lifers.
Speaker 3 00:34:40 Yes, but of that 25, I think almost 20 of them are working in that field as counselors. We really believe like the people who are closest to the problem and closest to the pain are the best equipped to come up with the solutions. So we, by following the evidence and equipping and empowering people that shared that lived experience, it was an effective way to build a robust community of people who want to do something new with their lives.
Speaker 2 00:35:09 This has valuable insight into rehabilitation. Both of you are master's degree while you were in prison. Was that part of the rehabilitation establishing these programs? I do been on the path to earning a master's degree. Tell us about that.
Speaker 6 00:35:27 For me, a path was a little bit different. Like Ted said, we started off at an institution where there wasn't a whole lot of programs available to us. And because of some of the rhetoric at the time, there wasn't a lot of hope either. But one thing that I had a remarkable resource I had was the love of my mother. Um, she lived almost two and a half hours away from the prison and there was not a weekend in seven years that she missed, she drove him, visit me every single weekend. And as a result of that commitment to me, that love for me, she would not allow me to give up hope that someday I would be home. So I, you know, I, I held onto that and I almost immediately began taking correspondence courses pursuing my bachelor's degree. I think I started school in like 2001, it's kind of a slow process, obviously.
Speaker 6 00:36:19 I mean, it was really hard getting a Proctor or my materials because the institution just wasn't set up for that. Like I was on a level four yard and I was the only person attending college. So as I had shared earlier, you know, when my, my dad died, I kind of got into my own little box and withdrew from my relationships with people who I wasn't on the yard with and just started doing schoolwork. But things changed for me when I reunited with Ted in 2010. But by that time, I was pretty close to earning my bachelor's degree in business administration from Adams state university. And I thought I had it kind of figured out, like I thought I was doing a pretty good job of not only staying out of the way, but I had some relative accomplishment and Ted presented this idea to me that he and a friend of his had been thinking about for awhile and him and his father had already started the nonprofit crop organization.
Speaker 6 00:37:20 And they're trying to find some ways to add value to the prison culture, to the incarcerated ablation. When he came at me with the idea of, you know, helping individuals get certified as state certified at AOD counselors, alcohol and other drug counselors. I, I knew it was a great idea, but I had already become so entrenched in my, just focusing on what I was doing, that I was a little resistant. But one thing about Ted is he's pretty persistent when he wants to be nice and very convincing as well. And I said, okay, well let's let me see what this teamwork looks like. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you something, Betty comparing my first 10 years of incarceration with, you know, getting kind of close to a BA to my last 10 years of incarceration. I had not only earned the BA, but I also earned a master's degree in philosophy from CSU Dominguez Hills, a master's degree in psychology from Cal coast university and a state certification as an AOD counselor from cap it's just night and day.
Speaker 6 00:38:22 And I attribute it completely to my willingness to work with others, work with others and have this culture of support and encouragement and some ways like even friendly competition. Like I remember when we were pursuing our educations in alcohol and other drug trading, and it was almost like a challenge, like what do you know, what are the grades that you're getting? What would you score on that test? Oh, I got you by a few points. So it was some friendly jousting, but it was, it was all for the good, it was all for the good.
Speaker 2 00:38:55 So you have two master's degrees and Ted has the master's degree. So this was quite a transformation for you, Jason, as someone who had withdrawn and not thought about working with others, certainly not being in a working partnership with others and Ted, you start at the crop organization working to restore lives and livelihoods for other inmates. Tell us more about the crop organization and how is it doing
Speaker 3 00:39:24 So in the beginning, when my dad and I, when, when he saw that I was, you know, really turning the corner and wanted to be productive with my years of incarceration, you know, not knowing what the outcome would be, but just we're going to maintain this unwavering faith that we will, you know, get a chance at some point to get a second chance of freedom. I mean, we came up with the idea together to this build a, uh, not a nonprofit that could support the opportunities that, you know, I could identify were available on the inside and starting it at high desert, we helped develop music programs. So we would raise money to buy the music equipment or the sports equipment. We were excited about that idea because it was a mechanism that we could use to bring people together from across racial and, and gang lines that are drawn on the inside.
Speaker 3 00:40:24 But I really wasn't equipped to like develop programs where people could, you know, look internally and do the inside work and the healing work that is absolutely necessary to heal yourself. So initially it was just sports programs and music. And when we got to CTF, that's really where we started, you know, educating ourselves. We built a team and it was through that team that we came up with with ideas that could provide more of a holistic approach to rehabilitation on the inside. And so my dad, he made sure that we had the funding to build out these programs and Jason and I, and I, and a team of other guys worked tirelessly on the inside to execute. And like I said earlier, we were fortunate enough to be at a, at a prison that was inviting this in. It gave us an opportunity for crop to, you know, it wasn't a big nonprofit, it was just focusing on helping us from project to project, but it helped lay the foundation and gave us something to think about for the future.
Speaker 3 00:41:32 So Jason and I, and other guys from our team, we would spend countless hours walking laps, uh, on the yard. And we would talk about what our vision was for the future. And it's, it's seems like a miracle that here we are having an opportunity to work together. Still our same core team is in place intact. And, you know, we're, we have this amazing opportunity to, uh, really build crop out into a robust organization that is, is helping restore lives. And we're primarily focused on doing that through workforce development and we have a framework and I'll let Jay kind of talk about that framework, but we're pretty excited about it.
Speaker 6 00:42:13 No, like Ted said, so now that we're out, um, we have a lot more resource and ability to identify the real needs of what our returning citizens have in regards to a successful reentry. And basically what we've done is we've identified four pillars for successful reentry. And, you know, based upon our, our experience, both inside and out, we've identified the first pillar to be personal leadership development and soft skills development. Personal leadership development basically is it's a separation from the pervading way of thinking within institutions. As we spoke about a little earlier, like the gang mentality, it's kind of a follower mentality. So ideally we believe that having conversations about personal responsibility, how you can cast the vision for your future and make a stand for your life on who you want to be living authenticity to what you say is most important in making decisions that are in alignment with that, having conversations with returning citizens about this and helping them get clear on what it's going to take for them to get where they say they want to go along with that.
Speaker 6 00:43:27 And we also are going to provide soft skills development. We've spoken with multiple organizations and fair chance employers. And one of the things that they say that many people, particularly those who have been incarcerated for an extended amount of time are lacking, are just basic soft skills, such as emotional intelligence, critical thinking, focus mastery, and then even basic understanding of technology such as Google, Google suite, Microsoft suite. So we're going to provide that training and those skills skill developments to, to our program participants. The second pillar, which we've identified as necessary and requisite for a successful reentry is training. So we are going to provide training, innovative training in the tech space. So we're looking at providing training in Salesforce or UX UI, which is a user experience design because a lot of people who are incarcerated are really gifted graphically and there's some interesting trainings or career paths for them in the tech field that they can incorporate their artistic ability into the tech field.
Speaker 6 00:44:38 And we will also be offering training in the AOD alcohol and other drug counseling certification, which we've already had tremendous or a considerable amount of success. I think while we were incarcerated, we're going to continue doing that out here. The third pillar that we've identified for successful reentry is employment itself. So we're actively in conversations and establishing business to business relationships with fair chance employers in the Bay area primarily right now. So as people complete our programs, the first two pillars, and then they will transition into actual employment be that, uh, internships or just directly into employment. So that will be our third pillar. And then the fourth pillar is, is housing. As you know, one of the biggest problems that we face here in California is a housing issue. And it's no different for those people who are coming out of prison and don't have the support. They are often going into unstable housing situations. So we're going to create more business to business relationships with landlords and apartments who would be willing to take on our program participants who will be fully employed in good paying careers as tenants and ensure that they have stable housing. And all of this is underpinned through what we're calling a lifetime commitment of support. Our program participants have a lifetime access to a network of employment opportunities, sustainable stable housing situations. Um, so long as the crop exists, which is hopefully for a long time,
Speaker 2 00:46:10 You think you've actually discovered the antidote to recidivism with these four pillars. I made so much of this as formed by the lived experience of you and your colleagues.
Speaker 3 00:46:22 Well, we think so. And there's plenty of evidence that talks about the contributions from homelessness. I think there was a recent study in Oakland, I think, and they say that nearly 70% of the homeless population has a felony conviction. So there's a bunch of correlations. We think that if we can provide and train people up a pathway to have a sense of dignity in the work that they're doing with the possibility or potential of upward mobility, just the feeling that it creates in person to know that here's a path for success. We believe that the people who are caught up in the revolving door, that it's usually one of these factors that's missing. So we know that substance abuse issues are often caused for re recidivism and whether that's the possession or dealing, or possibly finding creative ways to make sure that they can support their habit, which are often illegal. There's no one thing. So that's why we believe if we can provide some wraparound services and have a holistic
Speaker 6 00:47:30 Approach that we're going to give people who are searching for a change,
Speaker 2 00:47:34 We're going to give them the best chance possible. Terrific. Thank you. This is so inspiring to hear what you've started building before your release, and now just your complete commitment to the crop organization to help find a path for so many inmates who probably see this that's the first time in their entire lives to have this kind of support. I want to focus on something I've learned about both of you, and that is you've been providing mentorship to young men for quite some time, even while still in prison, share with our listeners who these young men are and what pearls of wisdom did you impart on them?
Speaker 6 00:48:24 So when about the time that we were creating the alcohol and other drugs certification program, we began offering seminars, personal leadership seminars to a local community college and through, uh, teachers, you know, forward thinkingness, she was willing to bring some of her students in, and we had some exposure to the community and a capacity of us, you know, serving as, as mentors slash coaches on some of the perspectives that had helped us to transform our lives a few years after we began that endeavor another opportunity arose where a private school began bringing their students in to participate in book readings. So they, they usually brought in about 15 to 20 of their students that the grade range was between I think, seventh grade and 12th grade.
Speaker 2 00:49:24 These are students who actually came to see you in prison,
Speaker 6 00:49:29 Correct? Yes, yes. And, you know, we would read various books. I think for a couple of years, we were reading through, uh, John Steinbeck's novels, grapes of wrath of mice and men. And it was just a really interesting dynamic where you had highly educated and many rights privileged young men who attended a Catholic private school, expensive coming into the facility and reading literature and sharing thoughts with incarcerated men. So on one of these engagements, there was a, a story that was being shared by one of the teachers. And it was a story. I think it was bridge over the river Kwai, am I right on that Ted miracle on the river Kwai miracle honorary required. And, you know, just to, to, to paraphrase the general meaning of what was being shared, there was a group of POW's. They lived in a pow camp that was very similar to the atmosphere, like the stereotypical prison atmosphere. Like I need to take care of me, me, me, me, watch out get out of my way. But there was a small group of men who made a different decision and their decision was that they were going to look out for each other and that no man would be left behind. So they had a whole nother mentality. And one of these men gave
Speaker 4 00:50:49 So much of himself to ensure that his
Speaker 6 00:50:52 Fellow man would make it out, that he actually died in the process. And when he did this, it had a fundamental effect on the whole camp itself on the whole pow camp and the way that the prisoners are related to each other was totally different. So when Ted
Speaker 4 00:51:09 Heard this story, you know, we were already impressed
Speaker 6 00:51:12 With the character of the young men who attended the school. And, uh, when Ted heard this story, you know, I'm sitting next to him and, uh, you know, the teacher's telling the story and he leans over to me. He says, you know what, Jay, this is, we need to find a way to help a young man who can't afford it, attend a school. When he said that, I was like,
Speaker 4 00:51:30 Like, it sounded like a great idea, but you know, for two guys with life
Speaker 6 00:51:33 Sentences sitting in the prison visiting room, uh,
Speaker 4 00:51:36 It didn't seem real feasible. Like it was like 40,000. Yeah. It's like $40,000, you know, to, for, you know,
Speaker 6 00:51:42 Amanda attend education like that. Right. But you know, there, there's an old saying, you know, w where there's a will, there's a way. So, as Ted said earlier, a lot of the individuals who went through our counseling certification, they were the backbone of the self-help population there. So we had some, some allies who had connections with the school. And we were able to have a meeting with a teacher and a mother who were representatives, who we still work with to this day. And we were able to come up with a scholarship, a scholarship that would allow a young man from the Salinas Valley to attend this prestigious school and get a great head, start in life. And then we just went to work. We got our team of alcohol and other drug counselors, and some other leaders in the self-help
Speaker 4 00:52:28 Community. We put up flyers and
Speaker 6 00:52:30 Began pounding the pavement. And the amazing thing to me is that we had guys in there who were making 8 cents an hour, donating money to help a young man get, get a head start that many of them didn't have. And when it was all said and done, you know, we raised over $30,000 and helped a young man graduate Palmer school. He's in college right now. I just spoke with him two days ago. It was two days ago. It was his birthday. And he's in college playing basketball. You asked about, you know, some words of wisdom. I don't know. I don't know about the words of wisdom. I know that his parents were extremely committed to him are extremely committed to him. They would bring him in to receive coaching from us, uh, talk about his grades, help him get his grades up and, uh, participate in groups. And none of that was, you know, mandated. They were awarded a scholarship. They didn't ever have to come into the prison, but they continually brought them in and they gave us access to the, to their son to help him get on the right path. So I think it was definitely, no, I don't think I know it was a two-way street as we were investing in him. They were investing in us as well.
Speaker 2 00:53:31 What a profound experience on both sides, Ted,
Speaker 3 00:53:38 The honor, that the way they honored us by trusting us to mentor their son in that way, it, I think it had a deep effect on, you know, everyone who was involved on, on our side. I know it didn't, it did for me because, you know, just in what world can you imagine that parents are bringing their, their son, their teenage son into a prison for mentorship. And so, you know, it, it meant a lot.
Speaker 2 00:54:08 What were some of the issues and challenges you faced as you prepared for release from prison? What was going through your head? What were some of the emotions that you were feeling?
Speaker 6 00:54:21 So for me, we didn't speak much about it, but both Ted and I will, the beneficiaries of governor Newsome his grace, his willingness to commute our sentences. And that was an incredible, unexpected, unbelievable blessing. And at the same time, if it did present a little bit of a challenge for me, because traditionally, when a lifer is preparing for release, they go through a lengthy process, psych evaluation, board preparation. And if they're found suitable, I think there's 180 day waiting period for the governor's review. Another 10 nor I had that. And for me, you know, from me receiving the news on March 27th, only seven days elapsed before I was actually released from prison, many people might hear that and be like, well, that's a, that's a pretty good problem to have. And it is, it wasn't, it was an amazing problem to have, but I hadn't really wrapped my mind around what freedom was like. So there was definitely an experience of fear of uncertainty. And, uh, I'll say with, with, you know, sobriety that if it weren't for my amazing wife, um, I, my struggle in my transition would have been much more challenging than it was. She made things easy for me because she's a remarkable woman who loves me and I'm grateful for her. But leading up to the release, there was definitely some anxiety and some concerns about how much the world had changed in 20 years.
Speaker 2 00:55:49 Ted, how about you?
Speaker 3 00:55:51 I had been at San Quentin for about six months. And in that short amount of time, like this is the first there's, there's a few things, but this is the first thing in that short amount of time. There, I stablish some, some great friendships. And I arrived there in September of last year. I felt really blessed to just fit right in with a community of men who were pursuing the same thing that I, and so the first thing, it seems a little crazy maybe, but there's a sense that you're going to be leaving behind some people who mean a great deal to you. And I've experienced that from their end many times when, when people leave, do people that you, you know, you really grow close with that you love them. You've been in pretty tough circumstances for a long time with them. And you guys, you know, you're going through it together.
Speaker 3 00:56:52 It's hard when they would leave. And so this was the first time that I'd ever experienced it from the other end. And it was probably tougher because you're leaving behind people. It was hard to talk about how excited I was with people that I knew weren't going to have it, you know, at least not anytime soon, or maybe they didn't know if they ever would, so that it was tough to kinda just keep, you know, my excitement and my amazement at how things worked out, uh, to myself a little bit. And, you know, I've read books where in war, you know, they call it survivor's guilt. So I had that experience. It was tough to, to navigate that, but internally just thinking about how hard I had worked and prepared, Oh, you do that. Not ever knowing if you're going to get a break. So when the governor commuted our sentence, it wasn't just that he had commuted it, but he ordered our media release.
Speaker 3 00:57:51 So it was difficult to wrap my mind around the fact that I would be home within 10 days. My first call that I made was to my dad. And I told him, I'm coming home. The governor commuted my sentence and ordered my immediate release. I should be home within 10 days. And he lived in Tennessee. So like our first challenge was, where am I going to live? I didn't have a residence. I didn't have anywhere to go. It was in the early stages of COVID and transitional housing was, they were rejecting some people coming out of different institutions. So I didn't even know if I would have a place in those first couple of days if I wasn't able to secure something prior to my release, but my dad, you know, he's a, he's a miracle worker. And he, he was out here two days later and he made sure that I had an apartment to parole to.
Speaker 3 00:58:39 So there was a few days of not knowing like where, where, okay, it's good. I, this is the day that I've dreamed of, but now I got to turn my attention to how and where am I going to live? So him and his wife came out to California and secured an apartment. And once I knew that, that I had housing, there wasn't a whole lot that I worried about. I'm not saying there weren't challenges, but I just wouldn't allow myself to worry. I was more focused on enjoying this dream come true. And when I got out, it was like a turnkey situation that the, the apartment was furnished. Everyone was sheltering in place. So I had a lot of time to kind of ease way back into a life out here. And, you know, I'm just so grateful for my dad being willing. I shared earlier that he told me on the day that I was arrested, that we would get through it together. And he was there the day I got arrested. And he was there the day that I walked out the Gates of San Quentin and made sure I had a place to go. So that's my guy. And I get emotional just thinking about it. And I say all that, knowing that most people it's not that they don't have the support, but the people who are supporting them may not have the resources that I've been blessed with. And so I know it's not that easy for everyone.
Speaker 2 01:00:01 You know, I I've listened to your journey. I listened to all that you experienced behind the prison walls. Then, you know, the opportunities for really establishing some robust rehabilitation programs and taking that mission now to the work that you're both doing with the proper organization. I know that both of you, after serving over two decades of your life sentences, there are search for redemption continues. And I want to just ask both of you, how will you know, when you've found redemption, what's that going to look like,
Speaker 3 01:00:38 Man? Um, I don't, you know, I, I don't know that I've thought about it in that way. You know, w the word, just the word redemption, I think is, uh, has a lot of meaning. And if we think about things that are redeemable, just for an example, an aluminum can has a redemption value, right? And so I think for me, it's just something that I experience every day when I'm meeting people who are willing to see that I have value. There was, you know, there's a lot of questions. Uh, Jay and I, I have spoke at length about this for years, about how we would be viewed when we got out. So externally to me is just mind blowing to be welcomed into the community. And I know that not everyone sees it that way, but for the most part, my experience so far has been one where people are welcoming me into the community, back into my family, and they see that I bring value and that I have value. And I don't want to depend on other people for validation that too can be dangerous, but that is a good feeling. And it helps me to value myself. And when you value yourself, it's easier to make good decisions. It's easier to, you know, do the right thing, work hard. And I think, try to be a person that's others centered and, and bring
Speaker 6 01:02:20 Value to the community. So there's external, the people seeing my value and then me recognizing my own value. And I think that that's something that I'm experiencing every day. And I don't know if there is a day where I can say I've been redeemed until the good Lord calls me home anyway. So I don't know. I don't know if I can answer it any better than that.
Speaker 2 01:02:43 Both you and Jason are doing so much to extend yourself to others. And you recognize that you're grounding. That's about how you value yourself and how you're not going to be a good to anyone else until you're good to yourself. Jason, any thoughts on this?
Speaker 6 01:03:02 So there's no amount of work or good I can do to replace what I've taken. That said, I do feel that I have a duty, I believe deeply am I the core of my being that I have a duty to live my life in service and in immense for the pain on costs. In regards of like the concept of redemption, it's a really hard question, because like I said, what I took can be brought back, but with that said, I believe that putting all the work, the good work that I have done and that I will do to the side, if I'm on my death bed and my children look upon me and feel authentically in their heart, that not only I was a good man and a good father, but then they themselves are good men. Then I'll feel some level of contentment to use your word redemption.
Speaker 2 01:04:13 Thank you both for your honesty and taking us through your journey, giving us a little bit more insight about life behind our prison walls here in California. More importantly, thank you for your commitment. So supporting those who will be in search of a path to their own livelihood before their release, and certainly after their release, you spoke about the crop organization and for our listeners, if you are interested in supporting the crop organization, you may visit the
[email protected]. It's been a tremendous honor to sit with Ted gray as Jason Bryan, during this episode of the California table. Thank you both very much for spending this time with us and sharing your experiences, your insights, and the sense of hope that we can have in our heart with respect to how we can provide and support one another. Thank you, Betty.
Speaker 0 01:05:18 Thank you, Betty, Betty signing off until the next episode of the California table. <inaudible> paid for by Betty Yee for treasurer 2026.
