Overcoming the Plague of Gun Violence in Our Communities

Speaker 0 00:00:02 <inaudible> Speaker 1 00:00:13 Welcome to the California table. I'm Betty Yee. We will be meeting people from our diverse regions of California who are creating their own tables to tackle some of the most pressing issues of our time. Community voices gathering, coming together to speak up for themselves, to take charge of their own lives, to fight for themselves. This is the California table. Speaker 0 00:00:39 <inaudible> Speaker 1 00:00:55 December 14, 2012, Sandy hook elementary school Newtown, Connecticut, December 2nd, 2015, inland regional center, San Bernardino, California, June 12th, 2016. The pulse nightclub, Orlando, Florida, October 1st, 2017, Mandalay Bay resort and casino, Las Vegas, Nevada, February 14, 2018, Marjorie Stoneman Douglas high school Parkland, Florida, October 27, 2018. Tree of life, synagogue, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, November 7th, 2018, borderline bar and grill thousand Oaks, California, August 3rd, 2019. Walmart store El Paso, Texas. So many more before these and definitely more since then the anniversaries of these mass shooting events commemorating the hundreds of lives lost with expressions of condolences have become deeply inadequate for survivors, friends, colleagues, students, and communities across this country who want to see action on gun law reforms and work to stop the plague of gun violence in our communities. These events capture the headlines with their horrific death toll and multiple injuries. What the headlines do not capture are those deaths that occur daily involving in homes and in our neighborhoods, gun accidents, unintentional shootings, domestic gun violence, gun suicides, and more addressing the plague of gun violence. And gun-related deaths has encompassed multiple strategies from grassroots movements calling out for common sense. Gun law reforms to intense focus on individuals who are active firearm offenders with healing centered positive engagement. Speaker 1 00:03:35 Joining me today are Shannon Watts, the founder of moms demand action and Devon Bogan CEO of advance. Peace. Welcome to both of you. Speaker 2 00:03:48 Thank you, Speaker 1 00:03:51 Shannon. Let's begin with you. Moms demand. Action is part of every town for gun safety, and there really are so many organizations dedicated to the work of addressing gun violence. What gap were you trying to fill when you founded moms demand action? Well, Speaker 2 00:04:09 To be honest with you, I didn't know what existed I was in my Indiana house. It was December 14th, 2012. I was folding laundry. Um, at the time I had kids ranging in age from elementary school all the way through college. I have five kids and saw breaking news that there had been a shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, a place I'd never heard of. And as I watched the news unfold and simultaneously saw pundits and politicians on my television telling me that the solution was somehow more guns, right? That if only these teachers had been armed that this massacre wouldn't have happened, I became enraged. I knew that was a lie and I wanted to get off the sidelines and get involved. I assumed something like mothers against drunk driving, which had been so influential to me as a teen growing up in the eighties, but that already existed and that I simply would get on my computer and join. Speaker 2 00:05:05 And when I looked for something, I only found think tanks mostly in DC, mostly run by men. I found one-off state and city organizations again, mostly run by men. And I wanted to be part of what I now call a bad-ass army of women. You know, I wanted a national movement of women and moms led by women and moms to include all Americans to fight this issue and not planning to actually start one, but just planning to have a conversation about that. I started a Facebook page and that Facebook page turned into an offline movement. And it's actually now the largest gun violence prevention organization in the country. Speaker 1 00:05:46 That's fantastic. And obviously there were others who were thinking the same thing really didn't have a place to go and found you yes, both of you through your organizations, moms demand, action, Speaker 3 00:05:58 And advanced peace approach, their work relating to gun violence as a public health issue rather than a criminal justice issue. And I want to just delve on this a little bit. Why is this important and how does this lens influence the work that you do, especially, I think I want to start with you and Devon at Vance piece. Speaker 4 00:06:17 Well, you know, gun violence is a leading cause of premature death in the United States kills more than 38,000 people every year. It injures nearly 85,000 or more people throughout the year. So I think what we've learned is that it's happening and that the American carceral state or investments in that carceral state aren't impacting those numbers to any significant degree. And therefore it requires a different approach, a public health approach, an approach that is willing to see the humanity of both perpetrator and victim of gun violence. And often one in the same, in the context of the space that we work in at advanced peace and one that's willing to deliver developmental and healing approaches to those who are directly impacted by this kind of gun violence. And our work is all about that. Engaging those individuals who are at the center of gun violence in urban communities, those who drive gun violence in urban communities, who've also avoided the reach of law enforcement. Speaker 4 00:07:34 And most folks don't know this, but in urban communities work on violence. It's most prevalent that gun violence usually doesn't translate into a prosecution for those responsible for it. So for example, in a city like Chicago, everyone likes to talk about Chicago less than 12% of those thought to be responsible for the senseless gun violence that happens there in South and West Chicago, wherever be prosecuted for their suspected acts of gun violence. And if that's true, then that tells us that the criminal justice system can't be the answer. Isn't the answer. And therefore we have to have alternative approaches of this health approach is probably the most healthy approach to do this in such a way that delivers optimal results and reduces gunfire and sustain those deductions. Speaker 3 00:08:33 Thank you for sharing that. I do think that's a very little known fact. And, um, Shannon, before we turn to you, I wanted to ask Devona describe the work that you do with the vans piece and the philosophy behind that word. Speaker 4 00:08:45 Cool. Well, given the context, I just provided our job or our way we see it is engaging those very individuals, active firearm offenders who have avoided the reach of law enforcement. And in most of these, that's a relatively small group of folks, but they're driving most of the gun violence in those cities. As I stated earlier in these same cities where the prosecution rates, but this group of individuals is very low and this population other than being engaged by law enforcement, a system or institution that these individuals don't trust, we think it's important to engage them on less than until long forcement can remove them from the streets, provide them with the motivation, inspiration, resources, supports, and opportunities that can help them begin to change their behaviors on their own. So we work very intensely providing a very dedicated attention, intensive focus specifically on these individuals. Speaker 4 00:09:58 And let me just note really quickly that these individuals that we focus our energies on in terms of providing a developmental response centered response, these individuals are not being engaged by any other public or community-based system of care. And this is happening in cities that would say they're making significant investments and greater attention to reducing gunfire in those communities impacted by it. And I think it's profound, very provocative to understand here, learn that the very folks driving gun violence in these cities are rarely being engaged in any positive, healthy way by any other public or community based system of care. That's the depth that advanced. Speaker 3 00:10:48 Absolutely. Absolutely. And then we're surprised at what some of the, uh, the actions and outcomes are when they have not been touched in that way. Let me shift back to Shannon public health issue versus criminal justice issue for moms demand action. Speaker 4 00:11:03 Well, you know, I think it's both. And the more that we learn, the more data that we get in the different issues that are going on in society that come to the forefront of the national conversation, you know, our, our thinking, our approach, our organizing, and it has to change with it. At the end of the day, the gun violence epidemic in this country is a public health crisis. I mean, it kills over 100 people every single day, hundreds of more are wounded. And we have to address this like any other public health crisis. We have to make sure that there is government funding for research and direct intervention programs. Like what devote and advanced peace do our organization has gone across the country to unlock funding those kinds of programs. For example, in California, we worked with coalition of 40 other groups that pushed for funds for those programs. Speaker 4 00:11:57 And we were able to triple the funding for that. In one year in Washington, we also unlocked about a million dollars in Virginia, $2.6 million. So this work is incredibly important to addressing the violence that is happening in our communities. And so often we focus on mass shootings and we know that really that's about 1% of the gun violence in this country. It's everyday gun violence. It's in cities, it's gun suicides, it's domestic gun violence, it's unintentional shootings, it's police violence. And we really do have to focus on all of it. And it really does all fall under the umbrellas that you mentioned. Speaker 1 00:12:36 Thank you at this time of heightened and focused attention on the COVID-19 pandemic that is claimed over 500,000 lives in the United States. Gun deaths have increased annually surpassing the 40,000 Mark in 2020. My hope is we don't let up on the need for ongoing work to curb gun violence and gun deaths. Speak to our listeners about the relationship you see between the COVID pandemic and gun violence. For example, are the losses of physical and economic security and increased isolation factors. Speaker 4 00:13:13 Yes. You know, we know that, you know, gun violence or any kind of violence arise first and foremost, right out of inequitable structures. And the one thing that holds it has certainly pronounced is the inequity that exists in our society and where that inequity exists. And so what we're seeing obviously is uptick in gun violence that we think is directly related to the COVID procrastinate COVID. And we're seeing a lot of folks who will already live on the market, become more destitute, more depressed, more stressed out, more without, and as a result, we're seeing a lot of tension happen in these communities. In fact, you know, in most of the cities that we're in a couple of things about COVID and the gun violence intersection. First I'm grateful that our outreach teams, we call them neighborhood change agencies are the folks that do the daily violence interruption and facilitate providing services and opportunities for the individuals that we focus on in these very impacted community. Speaker 4 00:14:30 I'm grateful that they are in frame developed and prepared do the work that they've been doing, where they've been doing it because during COVID, we didn't see many other people in those communities providing frontline support for folks who were being impacted as all of us will be impacted by COVID 19. So for example, didn't see a lot of folks out delivering information health information about the virus, making sure that folks were properly informed about what to do, what not to do. Didn't see a whole lot of PPE delivery to those communities. Folks are hungry. I mean, literally hungry because they've lost their jobs. I mean, these are for the most part frontline workers, the first would be fired when the economy tanks. And so we saw a lot of folks are seeing a lot of people, you know, hungry and starving for food and basic necessities, more so than we have in our work in general. Speaker 4 00:15:33 But we're also seeing a lot of folks just struggling, just the mental health aspects of this in ways that we hadn't seen it before. And so our work is quite frankly, I feel like folks, they doubled meaning that we're addressing the gun violence epidemic. And now we're also being called to be frontline workers in the center of helping these communities better appreciate what this pandemic is, what it's not, and also making sure that they have access to the resources that they need to have access to. And let me tell you, moms demand action is on the front line of that. I just have to say that because they support our ability in all of our cities to get the level of resources, the kinds, the types of resources we need to those communities in the so really excited about this partnership, but certainly to your question, yes, it's been a significant impact in our communities and it's increased our workload or five votes. Speaker 3 00:16:33 Absolutely. Well, thank goodness for the neighborhood change agents. And just so many who are on the ground, providing these resources and information, as you say, just basic information about the Speaker 4 00:16:44 It's just basic information, basic conversation, right? I mean, cause that's the other thing, you know, folks need conversation. We, as human beings are built for community, this is stressing us all out and, and the virus is sort of taking that from us and can't take it for granted. And I'm just grateful for the folks that allow us the resources and opportunities to be able to beat that for folks who wouldn't get it otherwise. Speaker 3 00:17:12 That's terrific. Thank you, Shannon. You have, um, with your being the largest national grassroots organization, you see, uh, examples of this throughout the country. Speaker 4 00:17:23 Yeah. Go and said the COVID crisis is really exacerbating the gun violence crisis. There were millions of background checks processed in the last year. So many more than normal. We believe about 15 million additional guns were sold. And Speaker 3 00:17:40 Let me repeat that. Speaker 4 00:17:43 There were about 50 million guns sold in the last year, adding to, we believe nearly 400 million guns already in the hands of civilians Speaker 2 00:17:50 In this country. And really those sales have put an unparalleled strain on our background check system. There are about 43% more checks processed between March and November last year, compared to the same time period of the year before. So that means a few things. One funds are getting into the wrong hands. There's something called the Charleston loophole, a loophole in federal law that allows gun dealers, licensed gun dealers to sell a gun after three days. Even if a background check hasn't cleared, the reason it's called the Charleston loophole is because that's how the gunman was able to get a gun that he used to kill nine black worshipers in Charleston, South Carolina. He should not have been able to buy a gun, but it took a long time to pass because of his complicated history. So that's one issue. The other issue is that a lot of these guns are being sold to first-time gun buyers who may not have to have training or a permit depending on the state that they live in. Speaker 2 00:18:45 And the other piece of it is that people are confined to their homes. And so domestic abusers who have easy access to guns are threatening women. People who are experiencing suicidal ideation because they're afraid of what's happening. You know, in the economy, they have easy access to guns. Children who are unexpectedly at home from school have easy access to guns. So we're seeing a significant rise in gun deaths in injuries because of all of these things that we're talking about. And it comes down to COVID the work that, that Devona and his groups do advanced piece. I mean, they're so integral right now because 2020 was one of the most deadliest years in recent history for cities. It's why we have to take action again, because this is a public health crisis. It is exacerbating income and housing inequality, um, straining life-saving social service, and it is disproportionately impacting black and Latino communities because of those, those long standing inequalities. Speaker 3 00:19:50 Yes, exactly. Exactly. Shannon, let me just ask you in terms of the work that moms demand action does, it seems that a good deal of it is just about myth-busting and level-setting about the facts relating to guns. You just spoke about a lot of different circumstances that have led to increased ownership of guns and gun purchases, help our listeners understand the often misunderstood facts about guns and gun violence and gun safety. Speaker 2 00:20:18 Yes, this is a great question. In fact, I devoted an entire section of my book fight like a mother to debunking these myths and proceeds from that book go to gun violence prevention organizations, but the gun lobby has been spreading these myths for decades. And so I'll give you an example, gun violence. Isn't just a gun issue. It's a mental health issue. We hear that all the time, right? The truth is the whole world struggles with mental health issues. Only the United States has a murder rate, a gun murder rate, 20 times that of other high-income countries. And the idea that people who are mentally ill are committing these crimes is erroneous. We, we know that actually people who are mentally ill are much more likely to be victims of violent crime than perpetrators. And the NRA always pointed his finger at mental illness, video games, the culture at large, it's really just a straw man. Speaker 2 00:21:12 It's, it's a tactic to distract us from the real issue, which is easy access to guns, right? Even for people who are criminals. The other thing we hear a lot, another myth is that more guns will mean less crime or that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun, but do the math. We have about 400 million guns in this country. That's more than one gun for every single man, woman and child. And yet our gun homicide rate again is 20 times higher than that, of other high income countries. So that is not possible, right? If more guns and fewer gun laws made us safer, we'd be the safest country in the world. We're not. Um, and, and you know, the NRA thinks that we can somehow ensure that the good guy is always the one with a gun, but that makes no sense in a high stakes situation. Speaker 2 00:22:01 It is very difficult even for trained professionals to hit their intended targets, right? So that we're going to give civilians guns and very little training and then somehow make them sharpshooters is nonsense. And then the last thing I would say, you know, the myth we hear all the time is that organizations like mine or Devon's or others are anti-gun. We want to undo the second amendment or take your guns away. Many of our volunteers are gun owners or their partners are gun owners. This is not about abolishing guns. We are anti gun violence, not anti gun. Our movement is filled with responsible gun owners. This is simply about advocating for common sense solutions to this epidemic and returning the responsibilities that used to go along with gun rights. And that should Speaker 3 00:22:45 You raised a number of issues that hits close to home with me? So many, I can count them on two hands now of my friends have purchased guns during this COVID 19 pandemic. And really just out of a sense of, um, they're losing their security about a lot of things, but that guns became an answer for them. And I will say that there were several who came to me and said they didn't know the first thing about how to use a gun. So exactly your point <inaudible>. I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about racial justice, obviously, continuing to see the outcry for racial equity and justice. And, you know, there are strong perceptions that guns still relate to gangs. And yet we know many black Americans are purchasing guns for protection after the senseless killings that they've been seeing, you know, George Floyd, Brianna Taylor, I'm on Arbery. I mean, there are just so many unarmed victims of shootings by police and by others, you both to share your thoughts about the relationship between ending gun violence and the movement to racial justice. Speaker 4 00:23:54 I guess I can start by saying that this is disproportionately impacting young men and women of color under the age of 30. And so, you know, obviously we need to do more to ensure that these individuals have access to the supports and resources and opportunities that they need to have access to, to change that reality. We know that communities impacted by gun violence. You know, they have these essential expertise about what produces safety, what constitutes accountability and what facilitate to you. However, rarely is the public at the center of public safety. Rarely is the community impact community at the center of deciding what kinds of infrastructures and what those infrastructures need to look like to ensure healthier, safer, and more adjusted neighborhoods, uh, where they live. And so we've got to do a better job at ensuring that those kinds of things happen in this society. And I was just conclude by saying, you know, I think we have to, to really be thinking about, and considering what our priorities are, how we fund the society, we want to keep getting what we're getting. Then certainly we can keep doing what we're doing, but what we're getting is great and greater and greater death and destruction in our community. So we have to do something else. And I think we really have to begin to think about how we overhaul the way we fund a society and where we provide resources, supports and opportunities. Right. Speaker 3 00:25:48 Right. Shannon thoughts about the relationship between the gun violence movement and the racial justice movement? Speaker 4 00:25:56 Yeah. I mean, you know, police violence is gun violence and we have to fight this toxic combination of systemic racism. America's gun culture, the militarization of law enforcement that has resulted in the deaths of so many particular black people. If you look at, you know, the deaths of Ahmad Arbery and Brionna Taylor, and so many others that never make the news for generations, you know, these communities have been dying at the hands of all forms of racism and white supremacy and, and have really been the disproportionate number of victims of gun violence, including by the police. You know, we have, we have seen a real appetite among lawmakers in the States, and now at the federal level to pass legislation in the wake of what happened to summer. Finally, we have been out advocating for supporting testifying for these bills here in California, but also in Connecticut, Colorado surprising places like Utah and Nevada, Virginia, and they're passing right there, new laws that are raising standards in promoting transparency, um, accountability spanning choke holds requiring cameras, body cameras. So this is really a focus of our work in many places across the country in 2021, right now we're working in Maryland, Washington, Kentucky, and there's absolutely an intersection and there's a lot of work that is getting done. I'm heartened to say, Speaker 3 00:27:27 That's, that's wonderful. That's really wonderful. Devon, the work of advanced piece has shined the light on individuals at high risk of exposure to gun violence and build some harm, the elements of focused deterrence. I want you to spend a little bit of time just talking about what is focused to turns and what specific approaches or strategies make the work of advanced peace. Really, I think really unique, but also very, very transformative. Speaker 4 00:27:54 Yeah, that's a great question. Why don't we say, you know, focused deterrence is certainly a model that looked at and it certainly influenced and shaped how we go about our work, but I want to be clear. It is not, is nowhere near close to what focus deterrence is. I would like to say our approaches is much more about focus, engagement, focus. Deterrence is oftentimes tied to, you know, a law enforcement focus perhaps with in the community support on individuals, thought to be responsible for fire on activity. I would say that's where the similarities, when it comes to our work, yes, we're focused on the same people, but what we're trying to do or how we're approaching these individuals is very different. We don't use threats to convince the individuals that we engage to put their guns down, to, to think before acting, to think of other ways you can call your conflict conflict. Speaker 4 00:29:02 Other than by using a firearm. We see these individuals as human beings. I think that's a really important part of what our work is all about. And we see them as being a primary central part of any solution that we will come up with to reducing or ending gun violence in these neighborhoods. I think this population has to be embraced as a part of the solution. I often say to folks that these individuals are influencing our public safety policy in our cities, and they're not even thinking about it. So what if we began to help create infrastructures to help them actually think about what it is they are doing? I would say to your question, that engaging these individuals every single day and recognizing that 80, 85% of these guys, these guys consider to be the most lethal in our cities, don't want to live the way they're living. Speaker 4 00:30:09 They want what you and I, they want help. They want safety, they want justice, but they rarely have anyone who's healthy, helping them to understand how that can look differently than from what they get every single day. And so we're engaging these guys in the cities that we're in every single day, multiple times a day by multiple healthy individuals or giving them the same, same direction and guidance and life coaching. We're working with these guys to develop life goals for themselves. Let me think about it. Here's a group of individuals that rarely think about life beyond tomorrow or beyond the week they expect to not be here. Right? And so helping them think about life beyond tamale and helping them develop goals that say or communicate to them, you're going to be here tomorrow and you're required to be here tomorrow. And we want you here. Speaker 4 00:31:13 Some mall is an important message to be saying to them, and then making sure that we're folding around them. I won't, I can't get into all that we do, but making sure that we're wrapping around them, the things that they as individuals need help in receiving to get to where we're trying to take them. And I say that because I think it's important that we not wrap all of these guys into one blanket, thinking that they're all the same. They are not, these are individuals and we have to approach them and treat them personally and as individuals, but more importantly than the most important. And from what I've said, it's really about caring about people. It's about infusing love into our practices, infusing love into our policies. That's what advanced peace does in practical terms on the ground day in and day out with a group of individuals that are often isolated alone, negotiating untreated trauma in range, and no one else. I mean, no one else is reaching them or, or attempting to engage them for a variety of reasons. Understanding. Speaker 3 00:32:28 It seems so basic. And yet we know that for all of the structures that are around them, who otherwise would engage with these individuals. That that certainly is not the, uh, the core of strategies where they're working with these individuals in these communities. Let me ask you law enforcement, no law enforcement involvement that they certainly know about your work. Yes. Speaker 4 00:32:48 Oh, absolutely. And you know, law enforcement is an important piece of infrastructure. I'm one like my colleague, Zach Norris, that would be elevator center. It's not about the funding law enforcement. It's about the funding fear. And many times it's the fear that drives us to make investments that perhaps are unhealthy investments. But to your point, yes, law enforcement certainly aware of our work and certainly an important part of the ecosystem. No question about that, but we don't engage with law enforcement and you can probably, and your listeners can probably appreciate why in that, you know, law enforcement has been saved if you're already, today is a flash point for many folks in black and Brown communities for the population that we serve. Oh, it's a significant flash point. I mean, these, these guys are trying to avoid in circumstance law enforcement. So any mail of relationship between us and law enforcement keeps, uh, um, the most important element, uh, we need to have with this population. And that element is of trust. We have to have the trust of this population to be able to have them take our hand and our their hand, and be able to guide them in such a way that they're actually listening and also hearing, uh, the guidance, if they sense in any way that we're engaged with law enforcement, that trust is, is shredded. And we can't afford to have that happen in the context of what we're trying to accomplish. Speaker 3 00:34:33 Thank you for that. You know, I know we're in a time now of just ushering in a new presidential administration and there is tremendous anticipation that finally we may be successful in pushing for the enactment of common sense, gun law reforms, including background checks and assault, weapons, bans, and high capacity magazine bands, and the like how confident are you both about these reforms passing and are these reforms going to be enough to curb gun violence? Speaker 4 00:35:03 Sure. Yeah. You know, look, first of all, this is an incredibly critical time to act on this issue. You know, as we talked about COVID is making gun violence, worse gun sales are skyrocketing. Our democracy was literally held at gunpoint at the Capitol in January, but at the same time, we have a gun safety trifecta in Washington, the president, the Senate, the Congress, there's a gun sense majority. And we also know that the vast majority of Americans, something like 93% of Americans, 80% of gun owners, even 74% of NRA members Speaker 2 00:35:39 Support common sense, gun laws, like a background check on every gun sale. And the NRA is sidelined. The NRA is weaker than they've ever been, um, because of their own unforced errors and mishandling of their organization, the investigations and the lawsuits that they're defending themselves against. They are bankrupt both financially and morally. So there's this perfect storm of reasons to act right now to address gun violence. We strongly feel that this is a policy priority of the administration. We've had several calls with them. Now we're seeing legislation already start to move through Congress, background checks, closing the Charleston loophole, the reauthorizing, the violence against women act and, and more look, the, the administration has a mandate and they should act on it. Absolutely. Speaker 4 00:36:35 No. Yeah. I'm going to say this. And this is just me being very transparent that I've heard Shannon asked that question on a couple occasions now and her hope and the Isuzu Diaz and that her hope around what today perhaps can bring certainly gives me greater level of hope. I think I'm a little bit more pessimistic or less optimistic in the sense of what I've seen in, in my history as a African-American male in America. Bad shit. If I can say that, and if I can not think bad stuff seems to always find its way into black and Brown communities to perpetuate the destruction and just ease that happens in those black, Brown, poor marginalized communities. Even with the best malls, even with the best medicine, even with the best technology, doesn't seem to ever reach those communities where we work at a level of functionality required. And so I want to be hopeful, but my history in this country, my 64 years old history in this country, my father's 75 year old history in this country tells me that I should be a little bit more cautious and even more apprehensive. So I want to be hopeful. I do agree that if it can't happen now, uh, with that trifecta of, as Shannon referenced who, uh, that's all I can say about it. And let me just also say, and I don't think that's by accident. What happened in those communities, Speaker 2 00:38:36 In our communities, black and Brown or marginalized communities? I don't think what happens there is by accident. And so I think we got a long way to go, but I'm here for the long haul. Speaker 3 00:38:49 Well, um, let's see for, for being here for the long haul, I want to just follow up and Shannon, just the whole weakening of the NRA and how it been sidelined because it is not doing, uh, it's not as robust as it once was. Um, so it's, it's a lack of political will. I mean, you have w we see so many examples of members of Congress and certainly the United States Senate who are still very, very entrenched and very kind of traditional NRA rhetoric. But this is the time, I mean, there's such a convergence of events and circumstances as you both have illuminated. And I think Devoe, and I certainly agree with you, the underlying inequities that have brought us to this point of where we see it just across the board on so many issues. I would say, I probably share a little bit of your lack of optimism as well, because there are so many more deep underlying issues that certainly influenced this issue, but what is it about just kind of the NRA, what's the hold that they continue to have? And is it the NRA that continues to have whole, Speaker 2 00:39:49 Well, you know, something I've learned doing this work as a full-time volunteer for almost eight years is that the system is set up for incremental change. And I know that disappoints a lot of people, but it's the system we're working in. I would love nothing more than, than a revolution on this issue, but the system is set up for activists to organize and like drips on a rock show up at every single gun mill hearing, meet with their lawmakers, shame them and thank them, work to unelect them or to elect them, right. Our work as activists is to show these lawmakers over and over again, if you do the right thing, we'll have your back. If you do the wrong thing, we'll have your job. And that simply takes time. So I know everyone is waiting for this cathartic moment in Congress, where we pass these laws. Speaker 2 00:40:36 And I think we're on the precipice of that, but to focus only on that is to lose sight of what we've been doing all across the country, right? We pass background checks in 22 States, we've passed something called the red flag law in 19 States. We've closed the Charleston loophole in 19 States. We've disarmed domestic abusers in 28 States, not to mention other laws about secure storage. And we're also doing this work culturally dozens and dozens of restaurants and retailers have changed their policies because of the pressure that we've put on them. And if you look at marriage equality, you know, it's much like that work was done. They build momentum and support in the ground. And then they pointed eventually the right president and the right Congress and the right Supreme court in the right direction. And that's exactly where we're going. The NRA, you know, we have a 90% track record of stopping their agenda in state houses a year after year for the last five years. Speaker 2 00:41:32 Every year, they, they propose the same stuff, guns on campus, guns in K through 12 schools, permitless carry stand your ground. It's all the same stuff. And they just, they show up and they do it every year until they can pass it. And those bills used to just sail through the state house. Their agenda would have been accomplished probably by now, had it not been for activists like moms to be an action. So it is really about getting off the sidelines, getting involved. We stop the NRA from passing their federal priorities. Even though after Donald Trump was elected, they had given him $30 million and they had a Republican Congress. They really should have been able to pass whatever they wanted and they didn't pass anything. So sometimes activism is defense, sometimes it's offense, but if people show up, it makes a huge difference. And we've got the NRA on the ropes. They used to be all powerful. Really now they're they're powerless, and we need to keep it that way. Speaker 3 00:42:26 That's a great point. You raised Shannon. Oftentimes the needs become so dire that we want to see change know much more quickly, and then it's coming and incremental changes. Good. We need to keep building on it and continuing to make progress. And I can't help, but to think about juxtaposing that onto the experience that Devon was speaking about, and that is for our, um, black and Brown communities where they're still living with such inequities, that progress comes even more slowly. So we can all just build that momentum and make incremental change on both those fronts. I think we can get there much faster, but now obviously I think the movement of just having, you know, grassroots on the ground everywhere throughout this country and pushing States, and certainly continuing to put the pressure on, on Congress and our national leaders is absolutely what needs to continue to happen. Then I shutter to think what would happen to moms demand action. We're not here. So thank you. Speaker 2 00:43:17 Oh man, that's real talk collective organized loud. I mean, very loud how powerful voice is creating a path where no path once existed. And I am truly excited about, uh, the work and the power of the work and the leadership of that work. Absolutely, Speaker 3 00:43:46 Absolutely. Absolutely. No, it's definitely the force. Speaker 3 00:44:00 I want to shift gears. We spoke about this a little bit earlier, but just the complicated complexion around gun violence, prevention and protection. Now it's one thing to refute the right to bear arms by those who have sight. The second amendment, we have the elevated assertion of this ride by now, the insurrectionist movement was shifts the focus away from some of the, you know, daily gun-related fatalities that continue to occur in so many of our communities. And so many of our cities, police involved shootings about it, another dimension. And we talked about domestic abuse, domestic violence. That's another dimension of, of gun violence, increased gun sales to first time gun owners. I mean, there's just so many facets of this issue and I just have to Marvel at how both of you kind of keep up with this. And so how do these issues change your advocacy or the way that you approach the services you provide? Speaker 4 00:44:49 Well, let me start first. Cause I probably have lot less to say Shannon, as I think her reach is much broader than ours. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't change our work that much at all. And partly because, you know, we're so focused on maintaining these very myopic optic focus on this particular issue and place where gun violence has happened in the city of Richmond, where I served as neighborhood safety director, we were talking 40 years of, of gun violence in these communities. And, and oftentimes the resources raised to address that gun violence rarely met and, or reach the people who were at the center of that gun violence. And as a result of that and that being a common experience or common list history in most of the cities impacted by this level of cyclical, retaliatory gun violence that happens in urban or black and Brown communities. We believe it is so important that we not allow ourselves to become distracted. And I shutter it, anyone misinterpreting what I'm saying by the thing distracted by all of these other issues related to gun violence, but we just believe that this particular person and place and community deserves and will get our absolute attention. And so that's what we focus on. Speaker 3 00:46:28 Yeah. Thank you for that. Shannon. How about you? Speaker 4 00:46:31 Yeah. I mean, look, there, there are so many different types of gun violence. As we talked about before, you know, when I started moms demand action, I was a, a white suburban mom who was afraid, her kids weren't safe in their schools. And I think that's how so many other white women, white people came to this issue, you know, shame on us for not getting involved earlier as black and Brown communities have been decimated by gun violence for, for decades. And many of those leaders have been doing this without any attention whatsoever for years and years. You know, I've, I've met women who have literally stood on street corners to stop people from firing, you know, with their physical bodies. And I quickly realized after starting moms to be an action that this isn't just about mass shootings, that mass shootings are a small amount of the gun violence in this country. And we have to look at all types of gun violence and we have to find ways to prevent all of it. And now of course, because of COVID, Speaker 2 00:47:30 It's really getting worse than it certainly has been in the eight years that I've been working on this. So we have to work on city, gun violence and suicide, unintentional shootings, domestic gun violence. And, and we have to work with community partners who are already doing this work like advanced peace to really push for fundamental change, like a background check on every gun sale in order to start to get it under control. Speaker 3 00:47:54 Absolutely. No, thank you. Thank you both for that. I want to just shift gears a little bit and talk about the media, the role of the media. How does it help or hurt the work that you do? Obviously we still see a lot of violence and certainly gun violence sunscreens before us, but has that improved given what we have been seeing in terms of the more, you know, kinds of personal instances of gun violence in communities, or is it still something that causes a lot of challenge Speaker 2 00:48:20 In terms of media coverage? We're at a point in this country where often I think that we don't pay attention to gun violence, the way we should, that there has to be a certain body count level in order for it to make the evening news, right? You're, you'll get coverage when a certain amount of people are killed in a school or in a, in a restaurant. But when the same number of people are killed every single day, right, a hundred people are killed every single day. If you divide that by four it's something like 20 mass shootings a day about shooting is defined as four people dead, not including the gunman, those episodes of gun violence, very rarely get covered, not only in local news, let alone national. And so it's really important that we not allow media to become numb to this. I don't believe Americans are numb. Speaker 2 00:49:16 I think Americans are hurt whenever there is gun violence in their communities and they're concerned and they care, but in order for it to get media coverage, now we're at a point where it has to be catastrophic. And that negates a true crisis, which is that it's every day gun violence that is killing and wounding so many Americans in this country. And then there are other complaints I would have, for example, you know, the, the media refuses to use the term gun safety. They constantly are saying gun control. You know, we know that's a phrase that has been manipulated by the gun lobby to be negative. And there's some that have come around. I would also give media kudos though for, they have really made a big change in that they used to talk about the name and the identity of a mass shooter, a gun violence survivor of the Aurora movie theater shooting started a program, a campaign across the country that urges media to refuse to identify the shooter after, you know, the first initial mention of their name. And that is because so many of these gunmen want notoriety, whether they're armed insurrectionists or white supremacists or sadly young Speaker 4 00:50:28 Adults or teens who want notoriety. And that I think has been a big shift in the media. I would give them props for that. No, I would just offer this tape. I agree, Shannon, that we should certainly be really making this a profound statement throughout our media coverage about just how often, how much this happens, and it should be reported as an unacceptable, unnecessary reality in our most impacted neighborhoods. So that's the first thing. The second thing is, you know, I was really excited over the summer months because New York times is a story, uh, speaking to COVID speaking to, to gun violence happening in black and Brown communities around the country. And there was not one mention and they're usually it usually captures most of any articles, not one mention of law enforcement, but much more of a focus on the preventative interruption work, being done by community driven violence prevention strategies. Speaker 4 00:51:40 And I think that's an important thing for the media began to become much more aware of much more informed by, and certainly be more willing to lift that work up by itself. You know, I often think that we often make the kinds of investments where we make them because it's, it's all we know. And I think if the media and the broader mediums again, to help society appreciate one, the, the level of gun violence happening in our communities, the cost of that gun violence, the costs related to that gun violence by continuing to do what we've been doing to answer to that gun violence up again, you know, these alternatives that are demonstrating evidence for work, I think we could began to change society's idea, thinking and investment about how best to address gun violence in a way that's much more imaginative than it is today. Speaker 3 00:52:54 Yes. Well, and I'm not even so sure. Imaginative, it's really looking at different sources of what's going to inform the policies. Yes. You spoke about this at the beginning of about how somebody of the individuals with whom you work aren't even touched or consulted or allowed to really give voice to their lived experience every day. So that's great that the media is starting to turn some attention to that with so many facets to the advocacy work, Shannon, and to the work that you do around advanced piece, what's going to constitute success for each of you in this movement. Speaker 4 00:53:31 You know, I'll say for us live for us, what is, and it's a great blessing, great feather in our cap, uh, when the young men and women that we serve quite often resist our help initially to, after we have received, it will say to us that they are certain that being a part of our family and our family being a part of their family stayed there a lot that they know for a matter of fact, that their involvement in this work with us as partners with us, kept them alive. That is sort of the primary metrics of success for us to see these individuals began their healing journey began to, uh, embrace life to begin, to make better decisions because they are beginning to embrace life. And as they began to make better decisions, their lives began to change. And as time passes, they began to see more and more positive change in their lives and that condition, but transforming a city once impacted by gun violence. So it's, it's really at that person in level, but it's the impact of that person's doing and development that impacts the greater health, safety, and justice in those same very communities where these individuals live, breathe, work in play. So for us healthier community, safer communities, more communities, because of the decisions being made by those at the center of firearm activity, that's a metric of success that we get excited about in my neighborhood. Speaker 3 00:55:45 Yes. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Shannon. You've had many successes. Tell me how you feel about each of these and obviously your work continues, but how do you define success? Speaker 4 00:55:57 Well, you know, success is always winning. Even if you lose, I refer to this as losing forward. So we have successes, like all the laws I mentioned earlier that we passed at the state level, the cultural change that we've made, that we educate people about responsible gun storage over a million families across the country have gotten our be smart materials through their school boards. So that's, that's all winning, but, Speaker 2 00:56:24 But there are times even when we lose, you know, we, we recently thought a five-year battle in the state of Maryland to pass background checks on long gun sales. That includes semiautomatic rifles. And one year it didn't pass the next year a state Senator ran out the clock. So it wouldn't pass the year after that it passed, but the governor vetoed it. And then this year, uh, we were able to get the legislature to override the governor's veto. When we won, if we had considered that first year a loss, we never would have won in the end. Right. So I really think activism is all about this idea of losing forward. Yes, you lost, but what did you gain so that you can win the next time? Did you grow your organization? Did you create new relationships? Did you get more political power? Did you meet new members of the media? Speaker 2 00:57:11 I mean, they're all different ways to determine success. And obviously one important piece of winning to us is to, to pass federal legislation for the first time in twenty-five years, you know, the world looks a lot different in 1994, there were about 50% of the, the handguns that we see today in the hands of civilians. Then the number one cause of death among children and teens with car accidents today, it's guns. And, you know, there was no such thing as Google. You couldn't buy a gun online in 1994. So it is incredibly important that we make this change. And for those who are listening, they should absolutely reach out to their member of Congress and ask them to be a co-sponsor on HRA. That's the bill, that's moving through the house. We have to continue to increase funding for violence prevention programs like advanced peace. And I think there's a lot that we can do over the next four years with this new administration. Uh, and don't forget, the midterms are right around the corner and it's a chance to win all over again. Speaker 3 00:58:16 They are. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I really appreciate your, uh, outlook on activism and it is a long-term journey, but much is learned and much as one. And I think your outlook is exactly right. Uh, it is, um, it is take each step as, as it comes and know that it's going to inform what you do going forward. So it's really a wonderful, wonderful outlook, I think for both of you, I just first thank you both for spending this time with us, the work that each of you do with your teams as tough. There are probably days when, you know, there are probably more steps back than forward, but I wanted to just ask you personally, what gives you hope each day and how do you renew your purpose and intentionality in terms of what you do in this movement? Speaker 2 00:59:07 There's, there's so many things that give me hope every day. I would not work on this issue as a full-time volunteer for eight years. If I did not have hope, I really dislike cynicism. I think it's, uh, it's one of the most dangerous traits that you can have, whether that's as an activist or, or as a member of a democracy. And so I have hope because I see the wins and the progress that we have in the States and, uh, with major corporations and even among Americans who support this issue. And, and the fact that the gun lobby is, is weaker than they've ever been. And we are stronger than they've ever been. And, you know, I would also say that, that, you know, I can do this work as someone who has never been impacted by gun violence. I do this because I care about my, my family and my community, but there are people, there are gun violence survivors who wake up and do this work every day on top of the burden of grief that they already carry to me that is heroic. Speaker 2 01:00:02 My friend, Lucy McBath. She started out as the moms demand action volunteer. After her son, Jordan Davis was shot and killed actually just weeks before the Sandy hook school shooting in 2012, a 17 year old with a car full of friends, black teen, a white man told him his music was too loud. They got in an argument and the man opened fire and killed Jordan and Lucy immediately became an activist. She was going through such horrific grief, but she still wanted to protect perfect strangers from experiencing what she and her family had. And, uh, for those who don't know, she is now a Congresswoman in Georgia. Uh, she, she won a seat held by new Gingrich. It was a Republican seat for 30 years and she's a Democrat and she won it on this issue of gun safety. But if people like Lucy McBath can get up and do this work every day as survivors, then surely I can too. Speaker 4 01:01:01 Thank you, Shannon. What gives me hope? Uh, go back to how I answered the last question. You know, our peacemaker fellows first and foremost, you know, watching them take steps daily and struggle with their transformation, but move forward anyway, more and more are taking those very difficult steps that it takes a great deal of courage to be different, to stand apart. Uh, when you have an entire neighborhood pushing you towards danger and destruction, and it's often been all used. And so to see their willingness and desire, struggle, and to overcome the many obstacles in front of them gives me a great deal of hope. And to see the outcome of that struggle is, is it's just, it's breathtaking mind blowing my team. And I have a team of formerly incarcerated individuals facilitating our work around the country and folks like them facilitating this very difficult, hostile, volatile, uh, environments, not only in the environments where they work day in and day out, but even the political environment that they also have to navigate or the funding environments that they also have to navigate and go at it hard in the paint, as they say in the NBA every single day, believing that they're making a difference, knowing that they're making a difference. Speaker 4 01:02:46 My team, when I see that day in and day out, knowing that they get up every single day, every single day, believing in this pipe dream, that they can end gun violence, that they can actually do that. And they approach their work at a high level of professionalism and engagement and, and, and belief in community that gives me so much hope. And then finally folks like, you know, Shannon, you know what she said? And, and the folks, the many people within the moms demand action family. I mean, when they say they have your back, and when they say they're here to support and to help and to move a marker, they're not kidding. Oh, that's real. And so that gives me hope to have allies like moms demand every town, the community justice action form and the live free campaign and the national criminal justice reform and others who stand by our work and stand up this work because they to leave that is the game changer that these communities need and have been waiting for. That it gives me a great deal of hope every single day. Speaker 3 01:04:12 Thank you. As you, I'm sure you're both speaking. I have to say, just take my breath away with your just dedication and, and what you see as the potential of what can be and how that just continues to be kind of your North star in terms of the work that you do. I know that we will have listeners who will want to know how to get involved and help with your organization's. Devon who want to speak about that. How can members of the community help? Speaker 4 01:04:41 Absolutely. You know, I would say to make it short, to go to our website, there's a space on our website where you can reach out to us and with our teams, explore a variety of different opportunities on how to get involved in advanced piece, a D E a N E E T E a C e.org, advanced peace.org. Speaker 4 01:05:09 Yeah. So the first thing I would say is no one should assume people are getting involved in doing this work for them. It really is about strength in numbers. We truly do need every person to get off the sidelines. You don't have to have been impacted by gun violence to be part of moms demand action. You don't have to be a mom or even a woman. We have lots of, of, of men and women who are not moms, but who are concerned about this issue. We also have students demand action that people can get involved in. If they're high school or college age, just text the word, ready to six, four, four, three, three, and we will reach out to you immediately and plug you in where you live. We also have Facebook pages, not just a national page, but a page for each state. Speaker 4 01:05:53 You can find us on Twitter at, at moms demand, also on Instagram, our website as moms demand, action.org, and really just, just texting the word ready to six, four, four, three, three, we'll help you plug in right now, state legislative sessions are going on. Uh, we're working on federal legislation. There's so much to be done. And, and I'll, I'll be honest with you. Something I'm really concerned about as a parent and as the mom of a first grade teacher is we have all these new gun sales, millions, tens of millions of new guns in circulation. We know that most school shootings are committed by students who have easy access to guns. And we really need to be talking about secure storage. If I could just add to that question, a different kind of answer to all of the audience, the listening audience today and tomorrow, what ever different ever different you make. It can be unfocused, what powerful oversold or indispensable recreational or transformation the difference maker gets to decide what side of difference they make, make that decision and make it well. Speaker 3 01:07:21 Thank you. Thank you both. I really welcome our listeners to get involved moms demand action at advanced peace, both very, very present in the gun violence and gun violence prevention movement, and gun violence, safety movement. And I want to thank both of you for joining us today, not just for the work that you do with your team and your members, but also the partnership that obviously needs to be a very, very big part of the space to be able to transform communities and to lift up communities it's been, um, you know, for an issue that has, uh, I think now touched almost every, every person in this country to know that there are just those who continue to fight for being sure that we can live in safe and healthy communities. Like the two of you is truly uplifting. And I just so appreciate the time that you've spent with our listeners today. Thank you. Speaker 4 01:08:13 Thank you, giving it. Speaker 0 01:08:16 Thank you so much. Absolutely. Thank you, Shannon. Thank you. Is Betty starting off until the next episode of the California table <inaudible> paid for by Betty for treasurer 2026.